Curse

Zarconis · Apr 25, 2005, 07:10 PM // 19:10

BlackOut: For 2-6 seconds, all of target foe's skills are disabled, and all of your skills are disabled for 5 seconds.

Ever seen a warrior without skills for 6 seconds, or an Elementalist both would likely go down in those 6 seconds. You would be vulnerable for those 5 seconds. Keep in mind this only disables your skills. You can still load up on enchantments, stances and preparations before you do this. So, as in a post I just posted, you could stack up and then black out. Dealing decent damage in those 5 seconds (and hopefully your partner is taking advantage of the blackout). This would likely bring any character to their knees. This however is heavily reliant on a team.... which brings us back to the beginning where Ensign says

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especially when you're making PvP builds, you'll find all sorts of odd combinations that you'll want to run on occasion

. On this occassion, you'll be double teaming their key players.

Jackell · Apr 25, 2005, 07:22 PM // 19:22

Hmmm, I never thought of that combo. I always just dismissed it for shutting of my skills.

I'm really big on working cloesly with your team, as you can probably tell from my previous posts, so I may have to add that to my combo's. It would seem more as one to switch in and out, depending on the teams nees, but after you put it that way, it does seem to have a place. Good call.

Ensign · Apr 25, 2005, 07:25 PM // 19:25

There is no secondary that covers up all the weaknesses.[/QUOTE]

Nor did I say that there was - merely that a 'versatile' character is going to have a secondary that shores up weaknesses, one that allows him to be more useful in more situations, not one that makes him better at what he already does. There is certainly nothing wrong with characters that just do a couple of things very well - but don't mistake that for versatility.

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Originally Posted by Jackell

But that doesn't mean you should just let the warriors go.

That was never in question. The question is 'how is your team going to address Warriors?' There are plenty of solid solutions to Warriors that don't take up much space - the aformentioned Enfeebling Blood + Shadow of Fear, Elementalist Wards like Ward Against Melee and Ward Against Foes, Ranger Traps, Blurred Vision and other blindness effects, snares - the list is rather long.

The point, however, is that Mesmer skills are nowhere near the top of that list. There are a couple skills that are ok for self defense (Distortion, Sympathetic Visage) that I'd seriously consider for dueling, and a couple other niche skills that I'd consider running if they were in attribute (Spirit Shackles to fight off Rangers), but those are skills that you'll run because you're already in those attributes for much better reasons, and are just splashing them because they're effective and can 'pitch in'. If you seriously want to have an effect on blunting the enemy's physical offense, though, the Mesmer is not the class you're looking for.

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Originally Posted by Jackell

But in GvG and the tombs, your hardly ever going to be in a one on one. You take the lead role in taking down casters, and play as support for taking the warriors

But why divide your already stretched attributes thinner to use some admittedly sub-par Warrior hate? Why are you making yourself worse at a job that you are rather good at to try and do a job that half of the other people on your team can do better?

If you're already playing a heavy energy denial Ranger/Mesmer with Energy Drain and the like, I can understand grabbing Spirit Shackles to slap onto a Barrager on their team. In Illusion for Arcane Conundrum to help with interrupts? There's nothing wrong with grabbing Sympathetic Visage to drop on a key target during a lull.

But both of these are what you said - support in handling Warriors. You're still going to need some of the serious hate mentioned earlier if you want a real solution. Which is why saying that Mesmers can 'shut down Warriors' is delusive at best.

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Originally Posted by Jackell

You make it sound like once the casters are done you may as well use /sit.

Well, once all their casters are down you're pretty much just doing mop-up duty. "Good during mop-up" isn't exactly a stellar selling point for a character or skill. You don't want to just /sit, but mop up doesn't require any special tactics or planning. You're a Ranger, you have a bow, just hammer on remaining targets with that until they drop or get away. The only character that should be standing around doing nothing is the Mesmer, and he should be watching for guys trying to ninja-res to interrupt, running another flag up, or something along those lines.

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Originally Posted by Jackell

Once people stop playing around with the different combinations, is when the new combos stop getting discovered.

I don't think we're in any danger of that happening - those who want to be unique vastly outnumber those who want to win. That said, from a competitive standpoint, it is vital to understand the benchmarks, what they run and why. Tech does not grow in a vacuum, it feeds upon itself, grows in directions dictated by what else is being played in the environment. If you don't understand what has already been done, you're just going to fall into the same traps over and over again.

If you're going to design a primary Necromancer, you need to be familiar with the knocks on that class, the known issues and weaknesses it has. You should be prepared to explain why that character should be run as a primary and not a secondary - you need to have a good answer to why it should be run over another nuker or healer or other comparable class. If you're going to design a Ranger/Mesmer that carries Mesmer based Warrior hate, your build description should be accompanied by a paragraph explaining why it should be run over a traditional Pin Down / Barbed Trap / Shadow of Fear guy.

In short, you need to be able to explain what a given build or skill offers that others don't, what's particularly innovative about it, and why we shouldn't lump it in with hundreds of other builds that have failed for well known and understood reasons. That's how tech advances. If you can't answer those questions you need to think about your build more, or study the benchmarks until you can.

Peace,
-CxE

walder · Apr 25, 2005, 07:32 PM // 19:32

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Originally Posted by Auh

Wouldn't Weaken Armor be useful for a R/N?

I tend to use Penetrating Attack with my Ranger builds, so Weaken Armor isn't the best route for me. When I was using Power Shot back in the day I used Weaken Armor. Now I find alternatives such as SoF, Enfeebling Blood, Rend, and I still have to try out Rigor Mortis.

Jackell · Apr 25, 2005, 08:20 PM // 20:20

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Nor did I say that there was - merely that a 'versatile' character is going to have a secondary that shores up weaknesses, one that allows him to be more useful in more situations, not one that makes him better at what he already does. There is certainly nothing wrong with characters that just do a couple of things very well - but don't mistake that for versatility.

And how is a Ranger who can take down casters and also give support against Warriors not versatile?

[Quote The question is 'how is your team going to address Warriors?' [/Quote]

That's always the question. And having a skill that can change a combo from Caster destruction to Warrior support can assist your team. A GvG is a group effort, and your Guild should know what your capable of. A small assist from someone can change a stragety to make it more effective, and possibly free someone up to persue other aspects, instead of possible overkill. On reading my first post here, I did make it sound like a R/M could lay a good ol spanking to a warrior, and that is wrong. But a R/M is not going to be worthless against Warriors as they had been being made out to be.

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The point, however, is that Mesmer skills are nowhere near the top of that list. ... the Mesmer is not the class you're looking for. *shortened to not take up too much room

I said earlier, that casters are my focus. That's why I don't go R/N. But like I said also, and you said in that paragraph, there are niche skills that, if you have the attributes anyway, you can use to assist in taking Warriors down. You won't be the shining star of the guild and the big hero, but a skill that will work in an already used combo that will assist against the Warrior can make you more valuable than just one who is only useful against casters.

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But why divide your already stretched attributes thinner to use some admittedly sub-par Warrior hate? Why are you making yourself worse at a job that you are rather good at to try and do a job that half of the other people on your team can do better?

Because one skill to assist when the rest are aimed at casters isn't going to be the end of the world. Especially when the attributes are already there.

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But both of these are what you said - support in handling Warriors.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

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You're still going to need some of the serious hate mentioned earlier if you want a real solution. Which is why saying that Mesmers can 'shut down Warriors' is delusive at best.

That is agreed, and I did use the wrong wording there. What I'm trying to say is that R/M's are not completly worthless against Melee's as has been stated, and in trying to say that, I got caught up and made them seem better than they are. But they are not that worthless.

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Well, once all their casters are down you're pretty much just doing mop-up duty. "Good during mop-up" isn't exactly a stellar selling point for a character or skill. ...lines.

Yes, once all the casters are done, it's mop up. But during the fight, things don't always go according to plan, and I'm a big fan of having something to at least help turn the tides to your favor. There's a pesky warrior screwing everything up, and your team needs a little extra help in taking him down? That's where you come in. And that's not a rare situation, that can happen anytime your team is on the loosing end. Like I said, I'm a fan of having something to prepare for that. No one goes into a fight expecting to loose, but they have to have, even if it's just a small one, a preperation in case that happens.

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If you're going to design a Ranger/Mesmer that carries Mesmer based Warrior hate, your build description should be accompanied by a paragraph explaining why it should be run over a traditional Pin Down / Barbed Trap / Shadow of Fear guy.

The warrior hate is for support. I don't think someone should abandon the support aspect just because someone else is better.

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Originally Posted by walder

I tend to use Penetrating Attack with my Ranger builds, so Weaken Armor isn't the best route for me. When I was using Power Shot back in the day I used Weaken Armor. Now I find alternatives such as SoF, Enfeebling Blood, Rend, and I still have to try out Rigor Mortis.

Hm, does the armor penetration of Penetrating attack and the lower armor rating of Weaken armor not work in conjunction?

*edit*
Just to clear up, I'm not trying to just start trouble or an argument. I just think people are too quick to dismiss this class as being for only taking down casters.

Dovi the Monk · Apr 26, 2005, 12:14 AM // 00:14

i dont know i actually like the ranger/mesmer, like it has been said it can be the jack of all trades if needed for the team if someone is missing or there is also the fragility ranger/mesmer. they are able to produce some very good damage in pvp and also use conditions, take a mesmer with fragility and fevered dreams with you and you got a pretty good combo.

Nishio · Apr 26, 2005, 12:46 AM // 00:46

Since this is a R/Me type thread, I have a question.

Would a high expertise Ranger be worth making in an attempt to conserve energy if I were interested in using the inspiration mantra stances in exchange for one less energy regeneration unit? Are there any numbers that can be assigned to these values (energy >, energy supply, expertise) that I can look at to see what I want?

Jackell · Apr 26, 2005, 12:53 AM // 00:53

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/content...sts-id1154.php

Is a guide like this what you mean?

Nishio · Apr 26, 2005, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Thanks!

Is there one for energy regeneration numbers?

Nevermind. Found it. Thanks.

Weezer_Blue · Apr 26, 2005, 02:36 AM // 02:36

Ranger/Warrior isn't as obvious as "how does warrior compliment ranger?"

It's the other way around. Kind of confusing. I think the reason this was first invented was because someone wanted to make a Warrior/Ranger using all the great ranger stances but then realized that several of the good ones are in Expertise and it is much more cost effective and efficient to go with Ranger primarily. So they switched it and ended up with a melee fighting, stance using, kyting, tank dressed in Ranger's armour.

While the R/Me combo is redundant, I hold to my oppinion that the Mesmer side perfectly (and perhaps redundantly) compliments the Ranger side and does very well for PvP.